I found a few mentions of Canopy Wire Deflector Bars in the RAS Archives. One said that the deflectors were mandatory in the Netherlands. What has been experience and what is current thinking? Links and search terms appreciated as I could not find much with initial google search.

Temporary electric livestock fences are a known landout hazard in my area.

In my 40+ years in the sport I can remember 2 accidents where a wire deflection system would have saved a life. First ship ground looped into 4 strands of barb-wire that broke the canopy, ripped the compass off the hood, then hit the pilot in the forehead and rode up and over his head. Pilot SURVIVED!

In the second accident, the ship landed short of the runway and hit the airport perimeter fence at a point where 2 posts were used to stretch the wires using very strong double wires. Pilot was DECAPITATED!

It's up to each pilot to decide, I would place wire deflectors way down my safety list below parachute, transponder, FLARM, Life insurance, etc. Single strand electric fences are probably survivable.
JJ

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 9:37:33 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I found a few mentions of Canopy Wire Deflector Bars in the RAS Archives. One said that the deflectors were mandatory in the Netherlands. What has been experience and what is current thinking? Links and search terms appreciated as I could not find much with initial google search.
>
> Temporary electric livestock fences are a known landout hazard in my area..

You're still in VT?

A field that's used for stock, temporary or otherwise, is basically a place to crash in Northern New England. A farmer doesn't go to the trouble of getting all the rocks out and rolling a field flat to put livestock on it. The exception would be a horse farm. You don't want to land there either, if horses are about.

It's true: if you hit a wire, you're better off with a cage.

But instead of X hours and Y dollars installing a cage, I'd spend X hours on Google Earth and Y dollars on gas learning about fields and planning routes. 95% of our XC flying is with airports or known good landable areas (typically clusters of hay fields) in reach and by and large *the routes aren't random*. The only time we fly "field to field" at 3000 agl is when making an early get away for a 500K+ sort of flight, and those routes are are selected for the purpose.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 11:28:22 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 9:37:33 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > I found a few mentions of Canopy Wire Deflector Bars in the RAS Archives. One said that the deflectors were mandatory in the Netherlands. What has been experience and what is current thinking? Links and search terms appreciated as I could not find much with initial google search.
> >
> > Temporary electric livestock fences are a known landout hazard in my area.
>
> You're still in VT?
>
> A field that's used for stock, temporary or otherwise, is basically a place to crash in Northern New England. A farmer doesn't go to the trouble of getting all the rocks out and rolling a field flat to put livestock on it. The exception would be a horse farm. You don't want to land there either, if horses are about.
>
> It's true: if you hit a wire, you're better off with a cage.
>
> But instead of X hours and Y dollars installing a cage, I'd spend X hours on Google Earth and Y dollars on gas learning about fields and planning routes. 95% of our XC flying is with airports or known good landable areas (typically clusters of hay fields) in reach and by and large *the routes aren't random*. The only time we fly "field to field" at 3000 agl is when making an early get away for a 500K+ sort of flight, and those routes are are selected for the purpose.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

To answer the OP's question, I fly in the NE, I have no issues flying WITHOUT a "wire deflector".
One pilot I fly with (here on RAS) always had a deflector (he's a "little taller" than I....).

"Weigh your odds"..... Sorta like any insurance, gripe when you pay it, hope you don't use it, glad you have it when needed.... mostly....

This from one that "Tango Eight" may give grief to (July 2015 off-field landing)....... LOL...... Hi, say "Hi" to the family....

[So.... T8.... you went how high without a O2 back-up?????.....nudge nudge..... wink wink....]

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 11:28:22 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:

> A field that's used for stock, temporary or otherwise, is basically a place to crash in Northern New England.

Landowners (not farmers) put electric fence corrals in prime landable hayfields. One new owner put up wires for a small vineyard in a previously used PT3 field close to the airport.

In 2013, a visiting pilot had a electric fence wire ride part way up his canopy. It was still under tension when he stopped. The wire pulled out several fiberglass stakes but was anchored by a long row of stakes.

I'm just curious about wire deflector lore.

The wire deflectors are no longer mandatory in the Netherlands, due to European regulations considering them to be a hinder to free trade inside the European Union (same with yellow car headlights in France). They are rarely installed in newer gliders, and sometimes deleted from older ones. But they did save some lives in the past.

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 10:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> The wire deflectors are no longer mandatory in the Netherlands, due to European regulations considering them to be a hinder to free trade inside the European Union (same with yellow car headlights in France). They are rarely installed in newer gliders, and sometimes deleted from older ones. But they did save some lives in the past.

Our towplane (CalAir) was a cropduster in its previous life. It still
has the anti-wire features: wire cutter up the canopy plus a wire from
the top of the cockpit to the top of the rudder (to avoid having a wire
saw off the rudder). The airport owner spent a lot of time dusting
crops and has quite a few wire encounter stories. I heard of two glider-wire
encounters in the past few years here in the SE US: one in Chilhowee in 2011
and one this past fall at Blue Ridge. Both were cases of hitting power lines
in the air. One resulted in no injuries and a repairable glider, and the other
almost killed the pilot and destroyed the plane. Both were fortunate that
the wire broke without hitting the pilot (as I understand it): the Blue Ridge
pilot was injured by the nose-down impact.

Matt

Might have helped here:

AccidentoccurredMonday, February 19, 1990inCABINS, WV
Probable Cause Approval Date:09/21/1992
Aircraft:ROLLADEN-SCHNEIDER LS-6, registration:N511M
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
WITNESSES REPORTED SEEING THE GLIDER FLYING NORMALLY AT A LOW ALTITUDE
AND APPEARED AS IF IT WAS GOING TO LAND. DURING THE LANDING APPROACH,
THE GLIDER CONTACTED A POWER LINE WHICH SLICED THROUGH THE CANOPY,
FATALLY INJURING THE PILOT. THE GLIDER THEN DESCENDED TO THE TERRAIN AND
CONTACTED A BARBED WIRE FENCE PRIOR TO COMING TO REST. FLAPS WERE FOUND
IN THE FULL DOWN POSITION AND THE LANDING GEAR WAS EXTENDED. OTHER
PILOTS IN THE AREA REPORTED MODERATE TO SEVERE TURBULENCE AND STRONG
ROTOR ACTIVITY IN THE AREA OF THE ACCIDENT SITE.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:

* THE PILOT FAILED TO DETECT AND REMAIN CLEAR OF THE POWER LINE WHICH
CROSSED THE FIELD IN WHICH HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO LAND. CONTRIBUTING
TO THE ACCIDENT WAS THE MODERATE TO SEVERE TURBULENCE IN THE AREA AT
THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT.




On 12/7/2015 8:44 AM, wrote:
> On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 10:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>> The wire deflectors are no longer mandatory in the Netherlands, due to European regulations considering them to be a hinder to free trade inside the European Union (same with yellow car headlights in France). They are rarely installed in newer gliders, and sometimes deleted from older ones. But they did save some lives in the past.
> Our towplane (CalAir) was a cropduster in its previous life. It still
> has the anti-wire features: wire cutter up the canopy plus a wire from
> the top of the cockpit to the top of the rudder (to avoid having a wire
> saw off the rudder). The airport owner spent a lot of time dusting
> crops and has quite a few wire encounter stories. I heard of two glider-wire
> encounters in the past few years here in the SE US: one in Chilhowee in 2011
> and one this past fall at Blue Ridge. Both were cases of hitting power lines
> in the air. One resulted in no injuries and a repairable glider, and the other
> almost killed the pilot and destroyed the plane. Both were fortunate that
> the wire broke without hitting the pilot (as I understand it): the Blue Ridge
> pilot was injured by the nose-down impact.
>
> Matt

--
Dan, 5J

As mentioned they are no longer mandatory in The Netherlands. They were
introduced in the 1960s I believe after a string of accidents (some fatal).
Since then fields have become a lot bigger, obstacles a lot less and air
traffic a lot busier. We opted to replace all fences around the airport by
ditches, and deleted them from our fleet to improve on look-out. Also,
modern gliders seem less prone to injure pilots compared to the older ones
where the wire would go into the gap of the canopy front (compare K8 line
of fuselage/canopy to discus and you'lle see what I mean).

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 1:00:12 PM UTC+3, Eric Munk wrote:
> As mentioned they are no longer mandatory in The Netherlands. They were
> introduced in the 1960s I believe after a string of accidents (some fatal).
> Since then fields have become a lot bigger, obstacles a lot less and air
> traffic a lot busier. We opted to replace all fences around the airport by
> ditches, and deleted them from our fleet to improve on look-out. Also,
> modern gliders seem less prone to injure pilots compared to the older ones
> where the wire would go into the gap of the canopy front (compare K8 line
> of fuselage/canopy to discus and you'lle see what I mean).

From the New Zealand point of view, several things have changed:

- at the dawn of electric fencing, it was common to distribute it via a single high tensile wire quickly added to an existing fence using risers. These could often be quite high so that vehicles could pass under the electric wire at gates, and also so that risers were only needed every 5 or 10 posts.. As it was a single wire and the risers perhaps only 2x1s it was not easy to see.

- Since at least the early 70s new electric wires have been added as part of the main fence using staples over plastic insulators, and gates are traversed by routing the electric wire through a buried plastic (alkathene) pipe..

- at first, temporary fences for break-feeding (subdividing a paddock) used solid wire. Since, again, the early 70s, this has been universally replaced by stranded plastic (usually orange) with very thin aluminium filaments to carry the current. Besides being many times lighter to carry and many times easier to roll up and unroll somewhere else, it will also break before doing much damage. Many was the time, as a lad, that I rode a motorcycle through such a fence by accident.

> From the New Zealand point of view, several things have changed:
>
> - at the dawn of electric fencing, it was common to distribute it via a single high tensile wire quickly added to an existing fence using risers. These could often be quite high so that vehicles could pass under the electric wire at gates, and also so that risers were only needed every 5 or 10 posts. As it was a single wire and the risers perhaps only 2x1s it was not easy to see.
>
Many was the time, as a lad, that I rode a motorcycle through such a fence by accident.

Hmmm.... reminds me of white water canoeing in the '70's in eastern PA (Neshaminy creek?) one spring. I had the front of the canoe on a fast (spring thaw) but small stream.
Out of nowhere, I saw grass "floating in midair" across the stream. It had caught there when the stream was higher but now the water had receded some and left the grass on the wire.
I barely had time to lay backwards (paddle on top of me, lengthwise) and shout, "Wire!".
It was a barbed wire fence for cattle and it went across the stream.
A wire guide/cutter would have been nice then.

Can't say I ever had an issue with a landing though, but it's sorta like insurance, "You don't like it until you need it".

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 7:37:33 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I found a few mentions of Canopy Wire Deflector Bars in the RAS Archives. One said that the deflectors were mandatory in the Netherlands. What has been experience and what is current thinking? Links and search terms appreciated as I could not find much with initial google search.
>
> Temporary electric livestock fences are a known landout hazard in my area..

Jerry Robertson hit a fence between two railroad tie posts in a libelle, in the 1971 or 1923 Nationals in Marfa, Texas, tore his wings off and severely lacerated head and face. Next time he flew he had bars under his canopy to deflect wires.

gkemp

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 7:45:39 AM UTC-7, gkemp wrote:
> On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 7:37:33 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > I found a few mentions of Canopy Wire Deflector Bars in the RAS Archives. One said that the deflectors were mandatory in the Netherlands. What has been experience and what is current thinking? Links and search terms appreciated as I could not find much with initial google search.
> >
> > Temporary electric livestock fences are a known landout hazard in my area.
>
> Jerry Robertson hit a fence between two railroad tie posts in a libelle, in the 1971 or 1923 Nationals in Marfa, Texas, tore his wings off and severely lacerated head and face. Next time he flew he had bars under his canopy to deflect wires.
>
> gkemp
How quickly you forget. I was working on records in Utah, landed my 1-35 in a field, misjudged a ditch across the center, hit the barbed wire fence. Broke the canopy, one strand hit me in the face and broke, one, ended up in my mouth and one across my throat, 9 stitches. If it hadn't been a Schweizer, with skid down and hitting the edge of the road, the barbed wire would have killed me. Still thought that was very unusual and never but in Wire Deflector Bars.

gkemp "NK"

In the accident report which I posted, I was told the glider struck the
wire such that the wire was under one wing and above the other. There
was no escaping having the wire penetrate the cockpit.

On 12/8/2015 2:57 AM, Eric Munk wrote:
> As mentioned they are no longer mandatory in The Netherlands. They were
> introduced in the 1960s I believe after a string of accidents (some fatal).
> Since then fields have become a lot bigger, obstacles a lot less and air
> traffic a lot busier. We opted to replace all fences around the airport by
> ditches, and deleted them from our fleet to improve on look-out. Also,
> modern gliders seem less prone to injure pilots compared to the older ones
> where the wire would go into the gap of the canopy front (compare K8 line
> of fuselage/canopy to discus and you'lle see what I mean).
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

OK- Now that everybody has chimed in with reasons to have wire deflectors (or not), does anybody have a viable design that will work with a modern sailplane? I would be interested in seeing if a deflector is practical to use. Got a lot of barb wire out here in the desert, and I knew a pilot who lost an eye and got some pretty bad scars from having a wire slice into his canopy.

Here are some photos from inside (and outside) of my glider which has wire protection bars.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5aVbMKXgkQp

At first they drove me nuts. I felt like I was in a cage. It bothered my visibility. But after 10 flights or so I do not even notice they are there.. I somehow learned to unconsciously adjust my head as needed to make sure I have cleared any blind spots.

These wire strike accidents are rare but still happen. A glider just ran into wires during a contest this fall at New Castle a couple months ago. Thankfully, the pilot was OK. I'm not sure if the wires hit the canopy or not, but it does make me feel better having at least some, minimal protection on my glider.

I will admit I was very close to removing them at first.

7T

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 2:02:34 PM UTC-5, Mark628CA wrote:
> OK- Now that everybody has chimed in with reasons to have wire deflectors (or not), does anybody have a viable design that will work with a modern sailplane? I would be interested in seeing if a deflector is practical to use. Got a lot of barb wire out here in the desert, and I knew a pilot who lost an eye and got some pretty bad scars from having a wire slice into his canopy.

Chip has them (OEM?) in his ASW-24, likely the first time I saw them in a sailplane.
I would consider a ASW-24 "fairly modern".

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 2:02:35 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Here are some photos from inside (and outside) of my glider which has wire protection bars.
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5aVbMKXgkQp
>
> At first they drove me nuts. I felt like I was in a cage. It bothered my visibility. But after 10 flights or so I do not even notice they are there. I somehow learned to unconsciously adjust my head as needed to make sure I have cleared any blind spots.
>
> These wire strike accidents are rare but still happen. A glider just ran into wires during a contest this fall at New Castle a couple months ago. Thankfully, the pilot was OK. I'm not sure if the wires hit the canopy or not, but it does make me feel better having at least some, minimal protection on my glider.
>
> I will admit I was very close to removing them at first.
>
> 7T

I believe the issue was, "Hit wires, sudden stoppage too far above ground", the resulting (likely near vertical) impact did a job on the sailplane.
It was part of a thread within a day of the incident.
I would say, "The pilot survived", I WOULDN'T say he was "OK".

Really, really sorry to hear that. There has been very little information about this particular accident other than a wire was involved. What I did hear was "fairy banged up" but will recover. Again, very sorry to hear of the higher severity of the accident than I had imagined. I'm wishing for the best possible recovery. Wires are bad news.

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 2:02:34 PM UTC-5, Mark628CA wrote:
>does anybody have a viable design that will work with a modern sailplane?

Pure speculation.

For light gauge electric horse coral wires... Maybe a firmly mounted 'hook knife'mounted on a 12" whip to the fuselage just in front of the canopy might catch and cut wires (more often than not). Integrate it into an externally mounted Powerflarm antenna. Mount two. One on either side to get the sight blocking off center and gain redundancy (redundant antennas and cutter)..

I thought the wire strike kits for landing accidents, couldn't stop before a wire fence and could hit the fence post. A wire strike while flying has a host of other difficulties. Helicopters commonly had wire strike kits installed, and as part of the kit that are cutters above and below the aircraft. I have seen swing tests of these kits, but would not want to try it myself.

I have personally know three helicopter pilots that hit wires, all three knew the wires were there and momentarily "forgot". This happened to me once, but I did not hit the wire. Did have a conversation with a glider pilot who while landing out observed the wires, planned a landing to ovoid the wires, then completely forgot his plan and that the wires were there, only remembered after safety landing and exiting the glider.

Bottom line: have wires as part of your off field landing check list: Wild Women Seek Sex, Wind Wires Slope Speed

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 1:44:33 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 2:02:34 PM UTC-5, Mark628CA wrote:
> >does anybody have a viable design that will work with a modern sailplane?
>
> Pure speculation.
>
> For light gauge electric horse coral wires... Maybe a firmly mounted 'hook knife'mounted on a 12" whip to the fuselage just in front of the canopy might catch and cut wires (more often than not). Integrate it into an externally mounted Powerflarm antenna. Mount two. One on either side to get the sight blocking off center and gain redundancy (redundant antennas and cutter).

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 4:44:33 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 2:02:34 PM UTC-5, Mark628CA wrote:
> >does anybody have a viable design that will work with a modern sailplane?
>
> Pure speculation.
>
> For light gauge electric horse coral wires... Maybe a firmly mounted 'hook knife'mounted on a 12" whip to the fuselage just in front of the canopy might catch and cut wires (more often than not). Integrate it into an externally mounted Powerflarm antenna. Mount two. One on either side to get the sight blocking off center and gain redundancy (redundant antennas and cutter).

Why would you do that when there is technology that is demonstrated to work already in existence- and not ugly and dangerous to line crew also?
UH

Am Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2015 20:02:35 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
> Here are some photos from inside (and outside) of my glider which has wire protection bars.
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5aVbMKXgkQp
>
> At first they drove me nuts. I felt like I was in a cage. It bothered my visibility. But after 10 flights or so I do not even notice they are there. I somehow learned to unconsciously adjust my head as needed to make sure I have cleared any blind spots.
>
> These wire strike accidents are rare but still happen. A glider just ran into wires during a contest this fall at New Castle a couple months ago. Thankfully, the pilot was OK. I'm not sure if the wires hit the canopy or not, but it does make me feel better having at least some, minimal protection on my glider.
>
> I will admit I was very close to removing them at first.
>
> 7T

What are the ugly antenna mountings on the glare shield for?

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Lol! Well gee thanks!

Those are, of course, the Flarm and ADSB antennas. That was a quick and dirty test installation (wanted the ability to move them and find the best signal) with cheap plastic brackets and industrial Velcro. I was planning to update the entire panel shortly after that. I have simply not had the time or, frankly, the need to change it. It works perfectly fine (2-3 mile range usually, sometimes a bit more) and I like the "rugged ambiance" it creates. Somebody once said to me, "this kinda looks like my Grandpas Russian Stuka bomber cockpit from the war." I kinda liked that! No fancy instruments here. Just a big window and a steel cage! I do hope to pretty it up but don't see a lot of free time ahead. Thanks for the "encouragement!"

Stuka bombers were German, they would never look like your panel! Looks more like the Mir space station toward the end of it's life.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:13:06 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Lol! Well gee thanks!
>
> Those are, of course, the Flarm and ADSB antennas. That was a quick and dirty test installation (wanted the ability to move them and find the best signal) with cheap plastic brackets and industrial Velcro. I was planning to update the entire panel shortly after that. I have simply not had the time or, frankly, the need to change it. It works perfectly fine (2-3 mile range usually, sometimes a bit more) and I like the "rugged ambiance" it creates. Somebody once said to me, "this kinda looks like my Grandpas Russian Stuka bomber cockpit from the war." I kinda liked that! No fancy instruments here. Just a big window and a steel cage! I do hope to pretty it up but don't see a lot of free time ahead. Thanks for the "encouragement!"

German, Russian, whatever...;-)

Mercedes-Benz, Lada, whatever... ;0

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:37:25 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> German, Russian, whatever...;-)

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> Why would you do that when there is technology that is demonstrated to work already in existence- and not ugly and dangerous to line crew also?
> UH

Demonstrated to work? It's been demonstrated that only a few people feel that the potential benefits of the cage outweigh the immediate drawbacks. A device that practically no one adopts is not a successful engineering solution to a problem.

Say we mount something like the new external Flarm antenna on the nose just in front of the canopy and put a cutter on top. Something relatively cheap that works on practically any glider, that is integrated with something that you get a more immediate benefit from (aka Flarm). A wire cutting device that gets installed on a whole bunch of gliders will avert more injuries in total than a few cages (even if it were to work only half the time).

And sure of course, you'd want a slotted device that blocked the entry of ground crew fingers, a slot that lets a wire slide in and contact the blade. http://www.galls.com/photos/styles/KN208_500_1.JPG

As Jonathan pointed out 'wire strike kits' are used on helicopters. Lots of products and studies on the web. You'd not need something so big on a glider.

The wire cutter idea has been around for a long time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_cutter_(jeep)

The wire cutters on helicopters are big and while sexy on a helicopter (give it a bad ass look) they would be nothing but drag inducers on gliders. Plus a helicopter operates down low in the dirt (we call it the money curve, as it is out of the HV safety zone). Helicopters need the wire cutters. Gliders are low when landing out and I think it cannot be stated too many times pilots that know of the wires often get distracted and forget the wires are there, so modify and drill into your head WIRES in any off field landing check list. I have been one of those pilots that knew the wires were there and almost hit them (while flying a helicopter).

I seem to remember some very good books by Tom Knauff about off field landings and avoiding wires.

Maybe one of the new data bases will map all the wires and we can upload the data base to our computers, Flarm or whatnots.



On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 11:14:21 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Why would you do that when there is technology that is demonstrated to work already in existence- and not ugly and dangerous to line crew also?
> > UH
>
> Demonstrated to work? It's been demonstrated that only a few people feel that the potential benefits of the cage outweigh the immediate drawbacks. A device that practically no one adopts is not a successful engineering solution to a problem.
>
> Say we mount something like the new external Flarm antenna on the nose just in front of the canopy and put a cutter on top. Something relatively cheap that works on practically any glider, that is integrated with something that you get a more immediate benefit from (aka Flarm). A wire cutting device that gets installed on a whole bunch of gliders will avert more injuries in total than a few cages (even if it were to work only half the time).
>
> And sure of course, you'd want a slotted device that blocked the entry of ground crew fingers, a slot that lets a wire slide in and contact the blade. http://www.galls.com/photos/styles/KN208_500_1.JPG
>
> As Jonathan pointed out 'wire strike kits' are used on helicopters. Lots of products and studies on the web. You'd not need something so big on a glider.
>
> The wire cutter idea has been around for a long time
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_cutter_(jeep)

Gliders generally don't fly the same profile as helicopters.

I can see the benefit of all those externally mounted wire cutters/flarm
antennae - more drag! Since my glider won't be so equipped, I'll
realize an immediate benefit!

On 12/9/2015 12:14 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
>> Why would you do that when there is technology that is demonstrated to work already in existence- and not ugly and dangerous to line crew also?
>> UH
> Demonstrated to work? It's been demonstrated that only a few people feel that the potential benefits of the cage outweigh the immediate drawbacks. A device that practically no one adopts is not a successful engineering solution to a problem.
>
> Say we mount something like the new external Flarm antenna on the nose just in front of the canopy and put a cutter on top. Something relatively cheap that works on practically any glider, that is integrated with something that you get a more immediate benefit from (aka Flarm). A wire cutting device that gets installed on a whole bunch of gliders will avert more injuries in total than a few cages (even if it were to work only half the time).
>
> And sure of course, you'd want a slotted device that blocked the entry of ground crew fingers, a slot that lets a wire slide in and contact the blade. http://www.galls.com/photos/styles/KN208_500_1.JPG
>
> As Jonathan pointed out 'wire strike kits' are used on helicopters. Lots of products and studies on the web. You'd not need something so big on a glider.
>
> The wire cutter idea has been around for a long time
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_cutter_(jeep)
>

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I can see the benefit of all those externally mounted wire
> cutters/flarm antennae - more drag!* Since my glider won't be so
> equipped, I'll realize an immediate benefit!

Less drag and more Adventure!

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 2:14:21 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Why would you do that when there is technology that is demonstrated to work already in existence- and not ugly and dangerous to line crew also?
> > UH
>
> Demonstrated to work? It's been demonstrated that only a few people feel that the potential benefits of the cage outweigh the immediate drawbacks. A device that practically no one adopts is not a successful engineering solution to a problem.
>
> Say we mount something like the new external Flarm antenna on the nose just in front of the canopy and put a cutter on top. Something relatively cheap that works on practically any glider, that is integrated with something that you get a more immediate benefit from (aka Flarm). A wire cutting device that gets installed on a whole bunch of gliders will avert more injuries in total than a few cages (even if it were to work only half the time).
>
> And sure of course, you'd want a slotted device that blocked the entry of ground crew fingers, a slot that lets a wire slide in and contact the blade. http://www.galls.com/photos/styles/KN208_500_1.JPG
>
> As Jonathan pointed out 'wire strike kits' are used on helicopters. Lots of products and studies on the web. You'd not need something so big on a glider.
>
> The wire cutter idea has been around for a long time
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_cutter_(jeep)

You be the first- report back.
I'd stick with the proven solution if I were to do it.
UH

I second Hank on this. If you're worried about a power line in the grill while gliding, a canopy cage is the answer. Unfortunately, 99.999% of the time it seems like overkill.

'Zactly!

On 12/9/2015 2:53 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> I can see the benefit of all those externally mounted wire
>> cutters/flarm antennae - more drag! Since my glider won't be so
>> equipped, I'll realize an immediate benefit!
> Less drag and more Adventure!

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 9:09:48 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
>If you're worried about a power line in the grill while gliding, a canopy cage is the answer.

Power line?? Are you saying that a canopy cage offers some small measure of protection (any protection at all) from the kind of wire strung between telephone poles (telephone wire, house power, coax cable)?

I was talking about the bare 12 gauge wires strung between fiberglass rods maybe 1 meter above the ground.

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 2:16:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 9:09:48 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >If you're worried about a power line in the grill while gliding, a canopy cage is the answer.
>
> Power line?? Are you saying that a canopy cage offers some small measure of protection (any protection at all) from the kind of wire strung between telephone poles (telephone wire, house power, coax cable)?
>
> I was talking about the bare 12 gauge wires strung between fiberglass rods maybe 1 meter above the ground.

How about the wire strung across the field from a tree to the shed in the other corner?.
Fences are only one part of wire hazards.
UH

If you are worried about wires other than those separating pastures, the wire cutting through the canopy won't be your real problem... but at least it will shorten your suffering.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 2:16:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 9:09:48 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >If you're worried about a power line in the grill while gliding, a canopy cage is the answer.
>
> Power line?? Are you saying that a canopy cage offers some small measure of protection (any protection at all) from the kind of wire strung between telephone poles (telephone wire, house power, coax cable)?
>
> I was talking about the bare 12 gauge wires strung between fiberglass rods maybe 1 meter above the ground.

An "in general comment" (directed to this thread, not SoF)..... what about the wire "just in the tree tops you don't see" while going into a field?
This can slide across the BOTTOM of the fuselage.

You WILL take the flying speed and STOP all forward progress and turn it into a "nose down until you hit something harder".
I arrived at an accident site maybe 20 minutes after a similar event. It was in "central PA" where I had just done a field retrieve of another competitor (I was also in the contest). As we headed home, we saw rescue groups at the other end of a field.
We stopped and found yet another competitor had had an accident. He was trying to "land short" and didn't see the wires in the tree tops that hung his gear and made him hit the ground ~90* nose down ~30' below the wires.

So, we're proposing "wire cutters" on the top of the fuselage, a "wire cage inside the canopy" as well as wire cutters (that retract) under the fuselage so we don't have to worry about wires going UNDER the nose on a retract?

Bold ambition, would be worthwhile (in some cases), better than "making a call to loved ones" after the fact.

If you want to be "perfectly safe", don't do anything that has some danger in it.

[ever see the statistics about fatal falls in the bathroom of your house?]

Everyone has to weigh "risk & reward", we ALL do things that have some risk. We strive to mitigate the risk (training, not doing whatever on a certain day, etc.).

I've had a canopy wire deflector bar set in my ASW 24 since 1992. Before ordering the glider, I had some questions, which Gerhard Waibel kindly answered. IIRC:

1. No, it won't stop a power line. But it might guide it up and over my head.
2. Yes, it can be installed aftermarket but it's easier at the factory.
3. Yes, it can be removed and replaced in the field to use only during contests (but I never have).
4. Yes, it's a potential danger in a crash but my head would probably only strike it a glancing blow.
5. No, it doesn't affect headroom. My head is between the two bars that extend aft from a hoop over the instrument panel.
6. Yes, it affects visibility. Gerhard sent a drawing and I taped up the canopy of my old glider to check it. I used to fly in the back seat of a Ka-7 so compared with that, you're in a fishbowl.

I like it. I've never removed it. It's not really in the way although you learn to move your head a bit to look around it. I use it to hang a rearview mirror that I flip down for gaggles and to check if I'm leading and go through a bump so I can see if the guy off to one side turns behind me in the thermal I missed.

It cost about $300 installed at the time. If I bought another new glider, I'd definitely order it again. Not having one wouldn't prevent me from buying or flying a used glider but I'd probably look around for one to install.

I don't plan to ever use it. I also don't plan to use my parachute or to rely on my PowerFLARM to keep me out of trouble. To those who say a wire strike or wire fence encounter are unlikely so why spend the money, I suggest you talk to the safety zealots who keep asking why I don't buy a transponder ("Isn't your life worth $2,000?). Sorry, that's unfair. The wire deflector was inexpensive protection against a hazard that had hurt or killed several pilots I knew of. I've only seen one other glider (an ASW 28) with it in the U.S.

Perhaps the biggest factor: it looks REALLY cool. According to most spectators, I have the only glider with a roll bar. :)

PM me with any questions.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.